Archaic words

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Tue, 04/09/2013 - 04:36 — rdtaylorjr

Hello everyone! I'm new here, so please forgive me if this post is objectionable for some reason.

I am interested in finding ways to update hymns that contain archaic wording (thee, thou, shalt, etc.) without damaging the beauty of the poetry or the intention of the author. Some of you may consider this as an impossible or unworthy task. I'm not trying to start a debate about whether or not I should pursue this. What I'm hoping to find, is that it has already been done to at least some extent. Such a database as this would seem to be a great way to find out.

Is there a way to search specifically for alternate texts of hymns which, for example, use you/your instead of thee/thou?

Are you aware of some database (or some functionality within this one) that specifically contains updated versions of several hymns?

Do you have any suggestions for dealing with the many cases where the word "thee" occurs as an essential part of a rhyme?

Thanks!


Comments

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 09:12 — dianneshapiro

I can think of a few ways to find texts with non-archaic language. Usually you will find the texts in specific hymnal instances, so, in the "Select result type" box on the left hand side of the page, you will probably want to select "Instances."

We have a Text Classification feature that classifies texts (I believe the software classifies them automatically). You can find it under "Add a Field" - Texts - Text Classification, then check the box for non-archaic. You can then enter a text in the Text Name search box, or just hit the Search button for a long list.

There is also a text comparison feature which will compare the full-texts from different hymnals. You can find the text comparison on the text summary page when you search for a hymn text.

You can also try changing the thees and thous to yous and yours in your Text Name search and selecting "Instances" as your result type.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 12:10 — Haruo

First off, there is nothing objectionable about your post, and nothing to argue about with regard the usefulness of your intention.

Many of the hymnals published in last forty years have made massive efforts to do away with linguistic archaisms in hymn texts. ("Thou dost and thou shalt" is only the tip of the iceberg, and rhyme schemes that depend on "thee" are only the most visible part of the tip. Inverted word order is another real sticking point in some hymns.) You might look for instances of the hymns you're most interested in major modernising hymnals like "New Century Hymnal", "Chalice Hymnal", or some of the more recent British and Commonwealth titles. You will find that in some cases the poetry has survived, in other cases it has been trampled on. In some cases the author's intent (as you understand it, bearing in mind that most of these authors are deceased and can't be polled on the subject) has been preserved, in others it has been skewed or broken, intentionally or by accident. You may or may not be able to see a way to improve on the editors' efforts. And bear in mind that most of the serious revisions are under copyright.

I wish you well. Try Dianne's suggestions.

Are there specific hymns you are most interested in doing this with?

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 09:50 — hplantin

I wish we could get consensus on the best non-archaic, gender-neutral translations of hymns. I'd use them on the hymn authority pages.

Which work, and in which cases has the poetry or the author's intent been "trampled on"? -- Maybe some kind of crowd-source project where people can vote, contribute suggestions, perhaps even work on modernizing some hymns in a crowd-sourced fashion.

Or that would be too much like herding cats...

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